Curse

kostolomac · Jan 04, 2009, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whenitrainsitpours

A WE bar with Dismember will out-DPS an Eviscerate bar any day of the week.

Eviscerate is still a good skill. And thanks for showing another great build without SY!.

Improvavel · Jan 04, 2009, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Cry of pain is powerful and overpowered.

All the rest is just the same elitist crap - kill necros cause necro heroes rule and allow people to do stuff in hm with h/h, kill "save yourselves" cause it allows for mixed human/heroes teams to do elite areas, blah blah.

What is important in PvE is rate of killing. The faster you kill the faster items/gold/drops are generated.

Any skill that allows drops to be generated in such a rate that nothing else can be compared, it either has to be nerfed or other skills need to be buffed to make for it. All the rest doesn't matter.

Arkantos · Jan 04, 2009, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

All the rest is just the same elitist crap - kill necros cause necro heroes rule and allow people to do stuff in hm with h/h, kill "save yourselves" cause it allows for mixed human/heroes teams to do elite areas, blah blah.

Who said anything about killing necros and SY? If you bothered to read my suggestions and have knowledge of the game, you'd clearly see nothing is being killed here.

kostolomac · Jan 04, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

SY! is overpowered , buy Arkantos' suggestion wont' kill it, just make it harder to use.

Whenitrainsitpours · Jan 04, 2009, 04:26 PM // 16:26

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Originally Posted by Arkantos

No, it's way too late for that. Doesn't mean there's no point to change it, though.

So it's a useless change?

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When did I say anything about FoW/UWSC? Yes, save yourselves is the strongest PvE skill on a warrior, but you don't need it to be effective. Besides, you're acting like my suggestion is going to kill save yourselves.

Your suggestion won't kill it but it'll become near extinction on warrior bars. No, you don't need Save Yourselves to be effective however to get into a decent PuG, the morons have no clue how warriors usually work and ask for SY! to be brought. Am I right or am I right?

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You are right. It doesn't mean they're not overpowered, and it doesn't mean they shouldn't get changed.

The nerf to con sets would be the death of UWSC which, for some people, is the only reason they play.

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Is that as powerful as 3+ necromancers? No? Am I suggesting that necromancers need to be toned down in PvE? Yes?

Well then, I think you're smart enought o put one and one together.

I used an SS curses necro, Jagged bomber, and WoH monk with 4 henchies to do Vloxen. It's definitely on par with Sabway.

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Did you read what you quoted here, good sir?

Notice how I never said 'PuG', but 'skilled player'.

Did you read where I said skilled players don't PuG?

Whenitrainsitpours · Jan 04, 2009, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Eviscerate is still a good skill. And thanks for showing another great build without SY!.

Personally, I hate SY!, I only run it when I need it otherwise I keep my bars free of it. Even if I hate it, I do know it's a strong skill that's fine.

The only reason it should be nerfed is due to the abuse of Imbagons who can keep it up alot better than a Warrior can. Am I right?

kostolomac · Jan 04, 2009, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whenitrainsitpours

Your suggestion won't kill it but it'll become near extinction on warrior bars. No, you don't need Save Yourselves to be effective however to get into a decent PuG, the morons have no clue how warriors usually work and ask for SY! to be brought. Am I right or am I right?

Make your own group then.

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The only reason it should be nerfed is due to the abuse of Imbagons who can keep it up alot better than a Warrior can. Am I right?

It should be nerfed because it reduces all non armor-ignoring damage by 82.5% (I think that's the number) and it can be kept up 24/7.

Whenitrainsitpours · Jan 04, 2009, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Make your own group then.

Or leave the nerf to necromancers alone so I can just h/h in peace?

Whenitrainsitpours · Jan 04, 2009, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

It should be nerfed because it reduces all non armor-ignoring damage by 82.5% (I think that's the number) and it can be kept up 24/7.

However, it's only useful in Hard Mode (If you need SY! in NM, you're bad). Not to mention it can be shut down very easily. I'll agree with the nerf if Miss hexes and Blind are nerfed.

Improvavel · Jan 04, 2009, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Who said anything about killing necros and SY? If you bothered to read my suggestions and have knowledge of the game, you'd clearly see nothing is being killed here.

Why nerf soul reaping again?

Will you take necromancer human players over elementalist human players saying "Sorry necros are the shit cause of soul reaping and will dominate much faster, so u get the boot!!!!" or will u refuse a human channeling/resto hybrid rit and take a necro/rit instead?

So either Soul Reaping is so powerful that will deny other human casters over necros or its fine and u nerfing soul reaping to stop over use of necro heroes.

I wont. I take a N/Rt over a Rit hero or a Necro hero over an Ele hero, but that is because heroes suck.

What about "save yourselves"?

Does it make possible to an area that is otherwise undo able? Does the use of "save yourselves" make any area considerable faster in a full human party than in full human party without it?

The fastest clearing builds I see out there use consumables, tanks and CoP, not Imbagons.

What "save yourselves" does is, a) make mixed human/heroes parties go smother in elite areas and b) make aggro mistakes in hm less painful.

It doesn't make u invincible (well it does in nm, but if u need it for nm non elite areas TT ), it can be bypassed and can be shut downed/slowed.

While powerful, "Save yourselves" never created any build that overshadowed other builds, unlike ursan or cop.

Even with Imbagon available, the choice for clearing DoA and Duncan has been tank/spank groups, so again this seem targeted at players that use some heroes to complement a small core of 2-4 human players.

Improvavel · Jan 04, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

SY! is overpowered , buy Arkantos' suggestion wont' kill it, just make it harder to use.

The only build that can keep it up constantly is Imbagon (prolly some ranger builds can too). Additionally bringing it on warriors and other melees works a lot worse, as the SY! wont catch the back line, unless the back line is where the mid line should be.

Arkantos' suggestion is designed to kill its use on Paragons and then he decided to add a 5 energy requirement to warriors because with an order support there might be a change of being kept permanently.

In DoA, for example, you basically have to bring a Divert hexes and then some 2-4 copies more of hex removal to keep the Imbagon clear of nasty hexes. This in NM. HM is a lot more spammier.

And of course HM DoA is fun with permanent 50% miss or 2 energy down for the use of a skill.

More the damage SY! stop is auto attack damage and elemental damage. It does nothing to attack skill damage, spell damage and degeneration.

If you want to nerf it, increase the adrenaline cost or reduce amount of armor.

Tyla · Jan 04, 2009, 05:29 PM // 17:29

I can't believe someone is arguing against a nerf because of the power of "Save Yourselves!" and Soul Reaping.

ajc2123 · Jan 04, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

I don't mind making cry of pain less powerful, BUT being a main mesmer, I am worried about HOW its done.

ditch the mesmer hex part of it if you want to interrupt a skill or make it interrupt ANY type of skill.

OR make it where you dont need to interrupt a skill if more then 5 fast casting, so mesmers will still be wanted in groups. Lets face it, before CoP, only friends/guildies would voluntarily take mesmers into groups.

But honestly, Overall. I don't really care if GW is SUPER hard or not. I don't complain when I play pokemon because its predictible and easy, I play it because its fun. My idea of fun is where I dont have to sit in a chair for 2 hours trying to do an elite mission where most of the time the rewards aren't THAT good unless you get a good drop or two. I always thought the PvE aspect of GW was supposed to be open to everyone and the PvP part was the REAL challenge, and THAT is where skill>Time was supposed to take place.

But Like i said, I don't really care... cept for Cry of pain.

Oh yeah, also, When (if) SF and cry of pain is nerfed, I bet that the next farm will be A warrior/dervish tank with a bonder and everyone else is a monk with RoJ with 16 smiting. Even if scatter with RoJ is fixed, tanks will bring grasping earth and mobs will be dead fast anyways.

Every good farm revolves around a tank, and 1 or 2 things to keep it alive, and then LOADS of damage.

One nerf leads to another and another, Until there are no tanks, there are no bonders, there is no damage, and it becomes almost IMPOSSIBLE to do anything at all....but thats just my opinion. Just something to think about methinks. I really dont want to go back to mending warriors lol.

Improvavel · Jan 04, 2009, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I can't believe someone is arguing against a nerf because of the power of "Save Yourselves!" and Soul Reaping.

Is GWs broken because of soul reaping and SY! ? Did you heard me complain against a CoP nerf?

Will you not get a party because you not playing Soul reaping or SY! ? Will you get a party just because you play SY! or have Soul reaping?

SR and SY! aren't the PvE problems.

PvE is screwed because of campaign design and AI.

We are using NF and EoTn against mobs with prophecies only skills. But if you give them NF and EoTN skills + 2 or more professions, prophecies only players will be screwed.

And even then in some amount of time people would be complaining again. PvE mobs are static. They always play the same. Once you defeat them, u can defeat them over and over.

Its like DoA. I went there with my girl and our heroes. First we got slaughtered and was hard as shit. Now we slaughter everything there. Then was mallyx. Same crap. Then was duncan same story.

Shadow form is annoying. Although was more before.

CoP is too strong.

But lets face it, none is even close to what ursan was.

Xsiriss · Jan 04, 2009, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Basically all of you agreeing with Arkantos boguht the wrong game, GW1 is nearign the end of its life and the shit you lot are coming up with would just cause mighty upheavel, good thign anet don't pay attention to QQers.

Puebert · Jan 04, 2009, 06:21 PM // 18:21

imo, if you want to balance PvE, remove PvE Skills, skill splits, and cons.
But keep summoning stones.

Those are badass.

If PvE was intended to be balanced, these three things would not have existed. It makes no sense to have skills that are way too stupidly strong for PvP, and then try to balance them.

Do whatever you want to Shadow Form though.
It needs to go away.

MirkoTeran · Jan 04, 2009, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puebert

if you want to balance PvE, remove PvE Skills, skill splits, and cons.

This. Short and to the point.

/signed

And a bit off-topic remark: Did anyone else noticed how big majority of people advocating overpowered skills are relatively new on this forum?

OK, I'm getting my-antiflame suit now...

zwei2stein · Jan 04, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

My change:

15e/2c/45r

Elite Enchantment Spell. Lose your curent stance. For (5..25) seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but (5..50) Health and all enchantments.

I disagree.

SF needs major repurporsing and keeping its gimmicky features just so that they can still be abused in one instance (boss farm) and useless everywhere else is pointless. Restrictions you added look like typical "Don't use this. Ever." ballances people hate.

Repurporse 1, hidden damage buff, survivability at cost of elite skill, designed to be abused with scythe:

15e/1c/60r

Elite Enchantment Spell. For 60 seconds, you recieve 8..26% less damage and you deal shaddow damage. (armor ignoring version of shaddow damage)

Or, if you want to keep gimmicky feature:

5e, 1/4c, 15r

For 2 seconds, all Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss. When Shaddow Form ends, you loose all adrenaline and all but 1..8..10 energy.

That would allow it to be used in nongimicky and nonsuicidal way to either make mobs waste their first volley of spells in pve and to ensure spike is connects in pvp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

5e/8a/3r

For (3..5) seconds, all other party members gain +(3..5) armor for each rank in Strength.

I disagree. Again, overcomplicating skill. Just make it in image of original pre-pre-pre-nerf [Watch Yourself]. That was pretty neat usefull buff that did not mean that PvE was won.

If you really want to do it this way, what about making it scalable with tactics rather than strength? That would require heavy sacrifices for anyone desiring to abuse it as secondary, but not disable its usage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

My change:

10e/.25c/15r

Spell. Interrupt target foe's skill. If that foe was suffering from a Mesmer Hex and you interrupted a spell, that foe and all foes in the area take (10..15) damage for each 2 ranks in Fast Casting.

Removing hex on cast would be much better way to prevent coordinated spike instead on requring interrupt. That would require group to actually prepare, coordinate their hexes and whatnot, it would also make echoing cop much slower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

My change:

For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a creature near you dies. You gain half of that energy when a spirit or minion dies. Your energy gain is divided by the number of necromancers in the party.

You seriously underestimate amount of energy that Discordway would get from minions, spirits and spiked foes without timer.

Anyhow, People don't play with people because of other reasons. MMO does not necesarily mean that game is played with people. Vanquishes are mirror image of typical MMOs "kill 10 x" quests, that people don't group for either because it is not worth it.

If you want improve partying with humans in PvE look into theese missions:

* Eternal Grove
* Aurora Glade
* Dzagonur Bastilion

Hellishly hard with H/H, but doable with humans. Why? Most PvE Can be won by damage that H/H will deliver regardless of what you nerf. Not theese, because they can not be bruteforced as they require splits, positioning and whatnot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Having all these bonuses together is clearly way too powerful. Having them on their own are still powerful. Now, there's no way I can see individually changing the consumables, so my suggestion is simple. Limit one or two consumables to be used at a time. They are still powerful, but all three cannot be used together.

One conset is powerfull enough.

Improvavel · Jan 04, 2009, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puebert

imo, if you want to balance PvE, remove PvE Skills, skill splits, and cons.
But keep summoning stones.

Those are badass.

If PvE was intended to be balanced, these three things would not have existed. It makes no sense to have skills that are way too stupidly strong for PvP, and then try to balance them.

Those things were introduced with HM though...

Sometimes people talk as if since day 1 there was HM and then suddenly PvE skills were introduced and the game got a lot easier.

I never use cons, but I use PvE skills. Doing HM without those and with heroes and henchies only would be loads fun (gogogo jamei, cast healing breeze while I get hit by that 300 damage mind burn).

Getting an 8 player team can be quite time taxing. If I had one every time I wanted I would be doing GvG instead, which is much more challenging.

kostolomac · Jan 04, 2009, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puebert

imo, if you want to balance PvE, remove PvE Skills, skill splits, and cons.

If PvE was intended to be balanced, these three things would not have existed. It makes no sense to have skills that are way too stupidly strong for PvP, and then try to balance them.

Do whatever you want to Shadow Form though.
It needs to go away.

/signed only if all overpowered crap is removed AKA enviromental effects and retarded monster skills along with all you said.

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Is GWs broken because of soul reaping and SY!

Dunno about soul reaping , but of if SY! was a pinch more powerful it would change it's name to ursan blessing.

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SR and SY! aren't PvE problems.

LOLWUT!?

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PvE is screwed because of campaign design and AI.

I agree with that.

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But lets face it, none is even close to what ursan was.